Well, this posting to the newsgroup soc.religion.islam was rejected
as not relevant to Islam. HOW can a miracle not be relevant? I have no
clue. But you can read it now here.



will you accept this as the first part of meeting your challenge? I didn't
start out writing it for that, I originally just wanted to make my first
three remarks to Ahmed Okla's application of the Bible to the Qur'an, 
but it sort of "automatically" developed and a numerical pattern appeared. 
And I don't think you can debate that it is about a very meaningful matter 
either! Have fun following my argument. This should give all of us some 
insights how miracles are made EVEN when I wasn't trying to produce one. :)) 
Well, AFTER I saw some numbers "add up" while I was looking for the 
appropriate passages, I got into it and finding lots and lots of more 
connections was child's play. Which convinced me even more, how easy it 
must be for the Qur'an just as well if you invest enough effort and time.

In article <4map30$3lk@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, ahmedokla@aol.com 
(AHMED OKLA) writes:

| We start with the Opener. If we count the dots from the beginning, and get
| to verse number 5 we reach the 19th "dot" in the Quran. Appropriately, and
| as a warning the 19th "dot" is assigned to the Arabic word "NAABUDO" or
| "we worship". The letter "NuN' in Arabic has a dot and when we put it in
| front of a verb, it means "we". By doing this we make a declaration that
| worshiping Him alone is our intent and deed and we have to stick by it for
| GOD has mathematically coded this beyond our wildest imagination and we
| will be responsible to our Creator on the day of judgment. 
| The 23rd "dot" is on the "NuN' of "NASTAEEN". We declare that from GOD
| alone "we" ask for help. Again, we are committing ourselves to a
| declaration and we
| better, for our own good, stick by it. Note that 23 is 19 written in base
| 8.  

Well, I already gave a quite detailed response to the last sentence and its 
relationship to the "miraculous".

Let me look now at your use of the Bible in this posting:

| GOD tells us in the Quran that we should say that we believe in what was
| revealed to the previous messengers as well as what is revealed to us [3].
| It just happens to be true that believers behave the same no matter who
| they are or when they lived. We know that GOD says that His system in
| unchangeable [4]. 

Now, you have not revealed what this footnote [4] is refering to. But usually
I am on the impression that God does not talk about numerical systems, but that
his WORD cannot be changed and broken, but that is about MEANING and not about 
arithmetic mysteries.

| Let us see what GOD commanded Jesus to say about this in the Bible:
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^ ------------

You really want to claim, Jesus was talking in the Bible about the numerical 
system of the Qur'an?   Don't you think that is quite a stretch?
| "Do not think that I have  come to abolish the law and the
| prophets; I have not come  to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly ,
| I say to you that until the heaven and   the earth pass away, not an iota,
| not a 'dot' , will pass from the law until all is  accomplished "   [5]

Let me quote this verse in context:

Matthew 5:

16   In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see
     your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
17   "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I
     have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

18   I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the
     smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means
     disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

19   Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches
     others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,
     but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great
     in the kingdom of heaven.
20   For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the
     Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the
     kingdom of heaven.

First: YES, the Law [Torah] (the first part standing for all of God's word)
CANNOT be changed. THAT is what Jesus says here as you quoted quite correctly. 
And it is amazing that you as a Muslim quote this to support the QUR'AN, 
while Muslims believe that the very scripture that Jesus was talking about here
WERE indeed changed. Strange world.

Second: Jesus is acknowledging that people do distort and dismiss God's word
and teach others to disobey. Jesus is very realistic about that. But seemingly
he is NOT of the opinion that this would make anything change in the word of
God. He nevertheless states that" nothing of it will disapear" - against the 
corruption charges made by Muslims. Some might teach false interpretation about 
it, but others will teach it rightly - and you only can teach it correctly if 
it EXISTS. You cannot teach correctly from a corrupted text.

Third: It was certainly not about COUNTING the dots and strokes in the Law
but OBEYING it. Jesus has another saying that makes this very clear. Where
are we to look for it? Nothing easier than that. Add the vers and chapter 
numbers, i.e. 5 + 18 where Jesus talks about the dots and strokes resulting
in '23' and go to 23:23 in the same gospel, what could be more obvious?

Jesus says in Matthew 23:

23   Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! 
     You give a tenth of your spices -- mint, dill and cummin. 
     But you have neglected the more important matters of the law --
     justice, mercy and faithfulness. 
     You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Accidentally, this is verse 23 in chapter 23 ... which -- taking it in 
base 8 -- is (as Ahmed Okla has observed above) "verse 19 in chapter 19". :)

Let us see how the miracle unfolds: What does the "real 19:19" say? 
It is in the middle of the story of a man coming to Jesus and asking what 
he has to do to inherit eternal life. And 19:19 is part of Jesus answer to 
that question, and contains the command that Jesus gave at another place as 
part of "the" summary of all of God's commands, namely: 
"Love your neighbor as yourself!"

So, both 23:23 and 19:19 are about the "most important things of God's 
law". Coincidence?

The man responds that he has kept all the commandments Jesus had listed
but knows that this isn't "all". So he asks again: "What do I still lack?"
In verse 21 [=19 when read in base 9] Jesus answers:    Follow me!
[i.e. connecting eternal life with himself in this passage, we will see
that again very soon!]

And do you know where this summary of God's greatest command is? In Luke
10:27. How do I know I had to look there? Very easy. The first three 
sentences of Jesus in Matthew 23:23 contain 37 words. So, obviously I 
should go to the third gospel [which is the one written by Luke], the
only number mentioned in this verse is "tenth", so I look in the 10th
chapter and 37-10 = 27 [ -10 since we have already used 10 of the words
for the chapter number, so we have 27 words left] so that it has to
be verse 27. Absolutely clear and miraculous to the detail. But let us
not loose sight of the fact that we want to have a "19" show up once in 
a while, so keep on... If we divide the verse number by the position Luke
has in the New Testament [3rd Gospel and 3rd book] we get [27/3 = ] 9, 
the very base which transforms 21 into 19 as we have seen above!!! 
[don't forget, 21 was the verse in chapter 19 where Jesus said: Follow me! 
in response to "what must I do to get eternal life?"] Isn't this all 
absolutely astonishing and mind blowing?

Can one overlook the centrality of this command of Jesus proven by so many
19s around? And also the divine inspiration of even the details of ALL of 
the Bible up to the verse numbers [invented by a printer in around 1600 by 
God's sovereign predestination]?

But there is much more. Let us now look in detail at Luke 10:27

  He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your HEART 
                                    and with all your SOUL 
                                    and with all your STRENGTH 
                                    and with all your MIND'; and,
                'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

How many words does Jesus answer have? 30 words in all [Do not count the 
"he answered" since he did not say that, but this is supplied by the 
writer of the account.] And the exact same command "Love the Lord ... MIND"
is found -- guess where -- in VERSE 30 of Mark 12 (the Gospel between Matthew
our starting point and Luke where we found this central commandment after 
having been pointed there from the place in Matthew)!! And we are to love God
with four attributes of our being [heart, soul, strength and mind] and when
we add 4 to the verse number 27 which is the position in Luke, we get 31,
which is the verse in Mark 12, where it is said AGAIN: "Love your neighbor
as yourself." Is this not amazing how it finally comes out that when we love 
God fully with all our capacities that we automatically end up also loving the
people around us? And that is all miraculously encoded in the Gospels!

Thus we have seen the places this central command is found in all three 
gospel accounts are intimately connected by a clear and miraculous structure 
all of which goes back to Jesus' admonition to "not neglect the important 
matters in the law of God". 

Hm, this was a sort of miracle inspired digression, but now back to the main 
topic. Jesus said much more to those who very carefully and diligently study 
even the smallest details of the Law of God, but forget the big picture and 
what is its main purpose:

John 5:

37   And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.

39   You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them
     you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about
40   yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

[the context of these verses is given below with a more extensive quote]

Here again, Jesus says, that people can be very diligent in studying the
word of God, and even recognize that it is about life, but they completely
overlook the real center, the important part, and that is, that the Scriptures
testify about JESUS. HE is the center of God's prophetic revelations all 
through the earlier prophets. If only they would understand it and come 
and find the LIFE in him, that they were seeking in the wrong places.

Yes, no dot of the law will fall away, but it is not for the dots and letters
sake, it is because these dots and letters are testifying about the truth
which is in Jesus. Counting the letters will much likely make them [you] 
miss the meaning of what these letters want to tell. 

Just when I was about to send this off, I saw one more amazing relationship.
Remeber, the 37 words in Matthew 23:23 and how they lead us to the right 
passage in Luke? Let me tell you how I did NOT arrive at quoting the verses
of John 5. But how also the numbers tell me I have to go there. I had looked
at the three first Gospels so far. So, it is obvious that I will have to look
for something more in the one Gospel I had not yet looked at. And there are
several features pointing me the way. In the five verses quoted from Matthew
5, which word is repeated 5 times? Right, "heaven" is repeated 5 times. 
FIVE consecutive verse in chapter FIVE of Matthew talk FIVE times about heaven.
And what is connected with heaven? First, the FATHER in heaven [we see why in
a second] and the KINGDOM of heaven which we strive to enter. "Entering the 
kingdom of heaven" is basically synonymous with "receiving eternal life" which
we have seen already is a constant theme in all these verses. And it is connected
with the right PRACTICE of the commandments/law of God in the center of which
there is the commandment to "love of God and neighbor". Is it any wonder that 
"law" and "commandment" are together mentioned also FIVE times in these 5 verses 
in Matthew 5?
[Incidentally, our passage in Luke chapter 10 had two commandments "love God" and 
"love your neighbor" and 10/2 = 5 also.]
So many 5's can't but force me to look in chapter FIVE of John. And the original
37 words in 23:23 now tell me to look at the passage starting in verse 37. And
WHAT does this verse tell me? Remeber, we had still had an unused "father" 
awaiting to be tied into this structure? It says that the FATHER [God] himself
is testifying for Jesus. How? By this amazing and incredibly intricate numerical
structure which only God the Father could have put in place. Such is the 
testimony of the Father about Jesus. Who can refuse this powerful testimony?
And then, this father [in heaven] testifies for his Son, why? And has filled
the scriptures with prophecies about the Messiah Jesus, why? Because he is
the one who "is life" to those who believe in him. And receiving this life,
is the same as entering the Kingdom of Heaven. It ALL comes together in one
absolutely astonishing unity of all of the revealed word of God. And it is 
sooo complicated, that it is definitely impossible to have planned all this
with only human powers. Especially as the gospel writers have not written their
accounts together, but seperated in location [hundreds of miles] and in time 
[decades]. Only God could inspire them to such accuracy.

To bad that I do not believe in these structures. I am missing out on a lot
of interpreting my own thoughts into the word of God. 


All the content I talked about in the above verses is what I believe. 
You may throw away though, all the remarks about numbers.

Don't be concerned about dots and strokes and letters, but about the
important matters of God's word.  Be concerned about what God has told us 
on the topic of "how to get eternal life".

My prayers are with you,

Jochen Katz

The more detailed quote I promised:

John 5:

24   "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent
     me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from
     death to life.
25   I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead
     will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
26   For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to
     have life in himself.
27   And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28   "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in
     their graves will hear his voice
29   and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who
     have done evil will rise to be condemned.
30   By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is
     just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
31   "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.
32   There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his
     testimony about me is valid.
33   "You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth.
34   Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be
35   John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to
     enjoy his light.
36   "I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that
     the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that
     the Father has sent me.
37   And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You
     have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
38   nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.
39   You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them
     you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about
40   yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Overview on numerical features in different scriptures
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